John Githongo opens up on Azimio affidavit, Anglo Leasing scandal

It is almost 20 years since the scandal came to the limelight. After eight years of trial, one of the cases has been dismissed. What are your thoughts?

It is disappointing but unsurprising. The majority of high-level corruption-related prosecutions do not succeed.

The ‘Githongo leaks’ shocked the nation. What did you rely on to blow the whistle?

These were state contracts and I had been in government. We relied on information, a lot of which was presented to the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee.

You were the Ethics PS in the Narc government. Does the scandal remain a blot on President Mwai Kibaki’s legacy?

Definitely. Anglo Leasing was a symptom of a wider malaise that gripped the administration. Corruption in our context is not an academic thing, it’s political. It’s a relationship. You cannot do it alone; you do it with others. High level corruption quickly assumes political and ethnic character. That is what makes it difficult to deal with by politicians.

Should we just give up on the fight against corruption?

We can’t give up because it costs us a lot. Corruption isn’t about the money that is lost. It’s about the political import of these transactions and how they’re perceived by the public. When corruption of this kind takes place, it causes people to lose confidence in their leaders and institutions. The bluntest instrument available in the fight is going to court. That is not only true in Kenya but around the world. These prosecutions take long and often are not successful. In some countries, leaders do not wait to go to court. They take action before the allegations take place.

You were loved and condemned in equal measure. In 2005, Justice Minister Kiraitu Murungi termed Anglo-leasing ‘a scandal that never was’.

He is entitled to his opinion. People said it was a scandal that never was because they insisted money was repaid. We were never told who was repaying the money.

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You were sued over the scandal, and there’s a case to that effect.

When you’re involved in the fight against corruption, there will always blowbacks. You can never be ready for what it will look like and from what direction it will come.

One relies on the perceptions of ordinary citizens as to what is true and not true, what they believe and don’t believe. The highlights of the time I was in government were not about Anglo Leasing per se.

They were the fact that when we joined government at the beginning of 2003, Kenyans were arresting policemen and public servants for taking bribes. What is now the Ombudsman’s office started as a Public Complaints Unit. PCU was started because of the deluge of complaints from citizens about corruption, incompetence and poor public service, especially as regards land cases and inheritance.

It was a special time when people had enough confidence to be able to bring these matters to government, confident that some attempt was going to be made to resolve them.

When you enjoy public confidence, citizens take action and that is the backbone of a successful anti-corruption strategy. Such an agency is not the primary organ of dealing with corruption.

For citizens to pick themselves up and arrest a policeman means they have confidence and trust. That’s a better and more optimistic society. In 2003, Gallup polled Kenya as the world’s most optimistic country. It was the most special time I had in government.

Is this the end of the Anglo Leasing saga?

I need to be convinced that it is over. These things have a tendency of rolling on and growing. Anglo Leasing was much about public debt and debt register. Debt remains at the forefront of our public life and the management of public finance.

Why did you flee before blowing the whistle?

That is a very difficult decision, to have to leave the country where your family is, where your friends are, where you’ve made your life. You assess the risks to your life and those around you and say, let me be away.

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Were your fears founded?

You cannot take that kind of decision without feeling your fears are grounded. You base your conclusion on your analysis and that of friends and colleagues.

You quit government dramatically. What have you been up to?

I’ve remained active in the anti-corruption field in Africa and around the world. I am active in media and consultancy. My interests have not changed.

You were an integral figure in Azimio campaigns last year. What role did you play?

I wouldn’t say I was integral. I supported Raila Odinga and did not hide it. We had worked together before. I appreciate his role in the struggle for the second liberation and the freedom that we enjoy today. There were figures, especially political actors, who were more integral than me.

What role did you play?

I offered in my personal capacity, not official, advice to the campaign, especially around anti-corruption issues. That started in the 1990s when we worked with the then-opposition.

During the presidential petition, the Supreme Court sort of punched holes in your CV in terms of human rights and good governance. What is your take?

I respect the Supreme Court and the judgment. I’m not going to cast aspersions if I don’t agree with it. The court is an essential pillar of our democracy and free society.

Read: I stand by affidavit, says Githongo as he walks back on logs

You were mentioned and discussed (in the judgment). Did that dent your credentials?

It is definitely a challenge, but one which I take responsibility. I blame no one else for what happened.

Your honest view of the Supreme Court judgments?

The court came out of the 2010 Constitution that was promulgated after difficulties. It is still developing. People agree and disagree with the court.

In 2013, there was a judgment with regard to the elections that year. There was considerable conversation and controversy around that judgment. That will always be the case, especially when you are forced to take difficult and challenging political conversations and present them before a small bench of judges. You have to be ready the decision.

Chief Justices Willy Mutunga and Martha Koome were in the struggle for good governance, human rights and rule of law. What is your opinion of people who think the Mutunga and Koome bench are sort of betrayal to the individuals in the trenches?

Activists who join public service are always judged harshly. People ask: ‘ do you still champion these issues?’ They are held to a higher and more difficult standard than others. There will always be controversy about decisions the Supreme Court makes.

There will be those who feel in favour and those who against. It is safer to look at decisions made by the court in the fullness of time. No CJ can be accused of having been all bad or all good. You weigh these things with a clearer eye as time passes. All the same, their decisions are the subject of intense public contest.

Also Read: I stand by affidavit, says Githongo as he walks back on logs

What is your view with regard to the anti-government protests?

There is nothing new here. Maandamano have been part of our political life but the current protest is almost existential.

There is a sense of urgency that if we get it wrong over the next few days or weeks, Kenya might be disfigured and re-configured.

That is as a result of a combination of factors, including who the actors are and the current situation in Kenya and the world. But I emphasise that demonstrations are part of Kenya’s democratic tradition.

What is your view on the government handling of the protests?

The success or failure or the effectiveness or lack of effectiveness of maandamano is determined by the way government responds. Disproportionate violence on picketing and demonstrations is unhealthy.

The easiest way of dealing with people’s unhappiness is addressing what is making them unhappy. In this case, it is the economic situation and the sense that the government is out of touch with the reality of ordinary Kenyans.

Some say this administration is barely a year old and should not be judged too harshly

President William Ruto has proved to be a talented politician. That said, it is surprising that 10 months later, the United Nations is issuing statements about the level of violence demonstrated during maandamano. Ambassadors are talking about maandamano. The government has not enjoyed a honeymoon with the people. Internal and external factors have conspired against the government.

What is your view with regard to the government’s commitment to fighting corruption?

I haven’t been tracking it closely enough to comment authoritatively. One striking thing is that the administration has chosen not to prioritise anti-corruption. That’s very unusual for a developing country.

Are you surprised that some of your friends in the civil society like David Ndii are part of the administration and at the front line of saying corruption is not top of the agenda?

My friend David Ndii is a brilliant economist and I think he is advising the government. I certainly do not agree with everything he says, especially when I follow his tweets. But he is doing a job. Kenyans are responding and judging him on the basis of the advice that he is giving fairly clearly.

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